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Problem 737: Vitaly Medintsev - Fairy
vitaly.medintsev(30.05.2016) Helpselfmate by Vitaly Medintsev where he is added one more solution to Petko Petkov's Tzuika prizewinner. What our visitors think?
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
737
 
1.Kb1 Rb8 2.Qb7 Sb6 3.Qb7-d7+ Sb6xd7#
1.Ka1 Bh8 2.Qg7 Sdf6 3.Qg7-d7+ Sf6xd7#
1.f3 Rh2 2.Qg2 Sf2 3.Qg4+ Sxg4#
 
I'm a beginner in helpselfmates but I suppose it is a clear improvement of Petko's work, seehttp://www.yacpdb.org/#402406 (Author)
 
petkohs
 

Comments  

 
+3 #1 Seetharaman Kalyan 2016-05-30 04:31
Definitely it is an improvement.... since the second black rook was already there, an obvious improvement. Dont know why Petkov did not want to add this. It would be interesting to know his view.
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+3 #2 Aleksey Oganesjan 2016-05-30 04:35
Oh, maybe my following version will be a clear improvement of clear improvement of Petko's work?! :-)



Here we see:
- only one thematic bS;
- sacrifices of wQ on three different squares.
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+1 #3 Vitaly Medintsev 2016-05-30 05:05
Bravo, Aleksey!
Your version is a clearest improvement! :-)
I suggest to publish it as a joint work instead of mine.
737.1 would also fits - let the editor deside.
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+2 #4 Aleksey Oganesjan 2016-05-30 05:23
>> I suggest to publish it as a joint work instead of mine.

Yes, I agree.
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0 #5 Nikola Predrag 2016-05-30 07:51
bS is superfluous in the mates, that's a great flaw in hs#-genre, just as an idle white piece in h#-genre.
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+2 #6 Aleksey Oganesjan 2016-05-30 08:02
In the initial Petko's problem bS is also superfluous in the mates. In my opinion, in this case it's not a flaw because it's an immament characteristic of the scheme. This bS actively plays the same (unpinning and battery play) in all solutions - I think it is quite enough for his loading...
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+3 #7 Seetharaman Kalyan 2016-05-30 08:33
Quoting Nikola Predrag:
bS is superfluous in the mates, that's a great flaw in hs#-genre, just as an idle white piece in h#-genre.

In many direct mate cross check problems, white piece(s) closing the check many times do not take direct part in the mate. I think this is similar & the black knight is not a flaw.... not a serious one in any case.
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+2 #8 Vitaly Medintsev 2016-05-30 08:38
Concerning to superfluous bS I refer to helpmates in which some white pieces makes a move but doesn't participate in the mate position.
For example, in the following h#2 (having 12 points in FIDE Album 2004-2006) wSb7 is superfluous in all three solutions.

Kenan Velikhanov asked me to publish the following problem as an example:


In given hs#3 this "great flaw" is something like thematic non-participation in helpmates, I belief.
Moreover, bS is a greatest worker here - he makes two moves in each solution! Isn't this fact enough to consider it non-superfluous?
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+1 #9 Aleksey Oganesjan 2016-05-30 10:52
Oh, Vitaly was ahead of me - I want to show this Caillaud's problem too! And who can say that 12 pts are unfair?! It's genial problem...
So, many of the rules has its exceptions...
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+2 #10 Kostas Prentos 2016-05-30 13:00
How the piece that plays two moves in each phase, including the mating move by discovered check can be considered superfluous? Just because it does not control a flight square? If so, this seems like a harsh accusation for the poor, overworked piece.

Lovely improvement of the improvement, by the way!
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+1 #11 Vitaly Medintsev 2016-05-30 13:42
to #9
Quote:
It's genial problem...

Yes, it is but personally I dislike such helpmates where some white piece (not a pawn) doesn't participate in the mate position. So, Nikola's point of view could be understandable and even acceptable by some composers.
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+1 #12 Seetharaman Kalyan 2016-05-30 16:56
Quoting Vitaly Medintsev:
to #9
Yes, it is but personally I dislike such helpmates where some white piece (not a pawn) doesn't participate in the mate position. So, Nikola's point of view could be understandable and even acceptable by some composers.


In this specific case I think comparison should be made to mating position in selfmates. This problem after all shows the widely used 'Dentist' theme. It is common in such problem for the unpinning black piece to just capture the white checking piece and not always guard a flight square.
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+1 #13 Vitaly Medintsev 2016-05-30 18:28
Quote:
This problem after all shows the widely used 'Dentist' theme.

Thrue. The three last half-moves in each solutuion perform Dentist theme.

Theoretical subject is the following: should the requirements in helpselfmate, being a synthetic genre, be just a sum of helpmate and selfmate requirements or there must be specific requirements which differs essentially from the both mentioned ones?
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0 #14 Nikola Predrag 2016-05-30 23:14
What is an idea and what a medium for its realization, and what is a thematic mechanism?
Why would someone care if his perception fails to see that the Petkov's and Caillaud's Knights MAKE the idea exactly because they DO HAVE a function in the mates?

There are fantastic helpmates where a white officer may be removed in the mate, but it still creates the depth and complexity of the idea.

However, the function of bS in this problem and the version REDUCES the depth and complexity of the idea and mechanism.
How dare you call that an improvement!
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0 #15 Nikola Predrag 2016-05-30 23:16
Is there any hope that an idea could be at least perceived, if not fully understood?

I have a bad experience with a "problemist" who used to send me the "improvements" of various famous problems, wondering why the editors regularly refuse to publish them.
For instance, 1-phase #2 with all variations as the famous original but more economical.
Nobody could ever explain to him that the virtual play in 3-phase Zagorujko is what makes the content.
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+1 #16 Aleksey Oganesjan 2016-05-31 04:58
Quoting Nikola Predrag:
...the Petkov's and Caillaud's Knights MAKE the idea exactly because they DO HAVE a function in the mates?

Nikola, please explain in details: what function IN THE MATES bS have in Petkov's problem (yacpdb/402406)?
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+1 #17 Vitaly Medintsev 2016-05-31 05:37
Quote:
Nikola, please explain in details: what function IN THE MATES bS have in Petkov's problem?

Well, let me be the first, my friend :-)
The function of bS in Petkov's hs#3 is a line-closure (interference of wR) on the mating move as well as in Caillaud's h#2 on W1 but in Petkov's problem this effect is artificially created since there is no need to interfere some lines of static white unit in this mechanism. In Petkov's problem there is no alternate W3 that fails due to some specific reason, so the play remains the same with line-closure effect on B3 or without it.
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+1 #18 Aleksey Oganesjan 2016-05-31 06:03
Quoting Vitaly Medintsev:

The function of bS in Petkov's hs#3 is a line-closure (interference of wR) on the mating move as well as in Caillaud's h#2 on W1...

Yes, Vitaly is right, I agree with it. But this note does not refute the main thing which was said by Kostas Prentos in comment #10: "How the piece that plays two moves in each phase, including the mating move by discovered check can be considered superfluous?"
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+1 #19 Seetharaman Kalyan 2016-05-31 06:16
Quoting Vitaly Medintsev:

In Petkov's problem there is no alternate W3 that fails due to some specific reason, so the play remains the same with line-closure effect on B3 or without it.

Actually there is. 1.Kb1-a1 Bc3-f6 2.Qb2-d4? Sf3-e5? 3.Qd4-d7 + Se5*d7#?, does not work because WR is NOT closed. Because this try is there in only one phase, I think it is almost incidental.
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+1 #20 Vitaly Medintsev 2016-05-31 06:24
Quote:
Actually there is. 1.Kb1-a1 Bc3-f6 2.Qb2-d4? Sf3-e5? 3.Qd4-d7 + Se5*d7#?, does not work because WR is NOT closed.

Fair point, I'v missed this opportunity.
But the other point is also fair - Quote:
... this try is there in only one phase...
This means the mechanism is not perfect in this respect.
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